Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

CCW and combatives

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • CCW and combatives

    Not exactly sure which forum this belongs to, but since so much of ccw would be from I assume will be close quarters, why isn't there more of a push for hand on or combatives mixed with firearms?

  • #2
    I have thought about the same thing, though I was recently referred to check out ShivWorks for this kind of training. They were just in San Diego, and I tried to attend their workshop. I emailed them several times about attending and never heard back from them. Maybe next time.

    Comment


    • #3
      ShivWorks looks very promising, and I have heard good things about their training, although I have never personally trained with them. The GlockStore offers GunFit Classes, that combine some combative training with shooting. I have often combined Combatives with CCW Training in Private one-on-one and small group classes that integrate specific defensive strategies designed to allow you to Defend an initial attack, Disable, Distract, create Distance, and Draw your firearm. I have worked closely with Krav Maga and combatives Instructors to develop concepts that allow you to deal with the initial threat or attack through a variety of tactics, rapidly evaluate your force options, and respond to a weapon threat or initial attack , create an injury (distraction) and then draw your firearm from concealment and engage the attacker if necessary. This is the current evolution of CCW Training, and should be something you work on, along with your de-escallation and communication skills, as most defensive encounters are not deadly force, but may require some level of force to defend against. - Bill
      My posts are for general educational and informational purposes only. What you do with this information is your responsibility. I encourage you to seek out professional instruction. Nothing replaces in-person training with a qualified professional to ensure you learn properly and train safely.

      Comment


      • #4
        Would highly recommend checking out amtacshooting.com, Bill Rapier is very much one of the best in the area of real world combatives and his methods for instruction on this matter are the best I've seen to date. A lot of others offer weekend warrior camp, Bill is one of the few that takes it seriously and provides a class which will explain, and give you, information on the things you personally need to work on. Combatives are his specialty.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by VDMSR View Post
          Would highly recommend checking out amtacshooting.com, Bill Rapier is very much one of the best in the area of real world combatives and his methods for instruction on this matter are the best I've seen to date. A lot of others offer weekend warrior camp, Bill is one of the few that takes it seriously and provides a class which will explain, and give you, information on the things you personally need to work on. Combatives are his specialty.
          I've actually had my eyes on his class for some time now. His martial arts background is similar to my exposure. After missing out on his class the last 2 years due to commitments I was planning to go this year. Alas it appears he's not coming to my area this year.

          Comment


          • #6
            Concealed carry is too broad of a topic for one forum..
            ​​​​​​.
            Hand to hand combatives lol...

            Like are you ever gonna be in combat? Go hit up an American Combato course in Seattle or AZ, call it good

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Angry Smurf View Post
              Not exactly sure which forum this belongs to, but since so much of CCW would be from I assume will be close quarters, why isn't there more of a push for hand on or combatives mixed with firearms?
              Hmmm, do you mean, “Not exactly sure which sub-forum to ask this question in; however, because so much ‘pistol work’ (?) occurs at what I would assume to be extreme close quarters, why don't handgun self-defense schools place more emphasis on hand-to-hand engagement techniques?

              (How am I doing; do I have the gist of the question, now?)

              If I understand this question correctly then I really like it, and I’m glad you asked! I’ve been thinking about this very topic for a long time, now; and I’ve formed several (rather) definite personal opinions.

              First of all, American handgun combatants historically demonstrate very little or absolutely no skillful use of their legs and feet during extreme CQB pistol combat—This is a fact; and, at close quarters, I’d suggest this is also an important tactical omission.

              Instead of using low hard kicks in order to disrupt an opponent’s centerline balance (what every gunman uses to ultimately guide his instinctive aim with), and break a knee, stomp a foot, or rake a shin, a typical American CQB handgun combatant is (I think rather foolishly) taught to place a hand and forearm in front of his own body’s primary target zone!

              Look, if a group of movie-viewers was watching a western movie, and ‘Wyatt Earp’, or ‘Wild Bill’ were to suddenly draw his six shooter—while at the same time placing his forearm over his chest with his hand, either, over his heart or under his chin—what would most viewers think? (I’ll tell you what I’d think, OK.) I’d think, “Hey, what is that jerk trying to do—lose the fight, and his hand all at the same time!

              Two simple facts apply: First, it takes the human brain longer to process and complete two separate physical actions rather than only one; and, second, the farther away you’re able to keep your physical body from out of an opponent’s reach then the less likely you’re going to be to become injured (or worse).

              Frankly, I have a lot of personal contempt for all of the gross overemphasis I see placed, nowadays, on encouraging students to focus on extreme CQB pistol gunfighting techniques. Why? Because there’s a lot more to successful pistol gunfighting than simply standing immediately in front of an 18 by 30 inch cardboard rectangle, and repeatedly blowing out an 8 inch circle at its middle—THAT is ‘Why’.

              However, at the same time, I recognize it makes a lot of common sense to replace any attempted use of something like, say, a large knife with a series of (much longer reaching) bullets—Bullets that can be fired from between 1 to 5 yards away, as well as from a firing-point that is (often) beyond an attacker’s immediate reach.

              (It is this sort of savvy CQB gunfighting technique that minimizes any advantage an opponent might have gained in proximity, and can actually work to reduce both his accuracy, and speed of attack.)

              The really big problem that needs to be properly addressed, here, is that most (if not all) CQB pistol combat can easily degenerate into mutual suicide! Consequently, a CQB pistolero needs to be fast with his hands, know how to (instinctively) keep his shot group very tight and, when necessary, be able to keep an opponent off of himself WITHOUT placing any more of his upper torso in harm’s way than is absolutely necessary.

              In my experience one of the best ways to avoid becoming a CQB (mutual suicide) statistic is to: (1) successfully prevent your opponent from making any direct contact with your body, and (2) always remember that Nature (The Good Lord) gave you two arms AND two legs with which to fight.

              A CQB combat pistolero should, primarily, use his hands to work his gun, and his feet to unbalance an opponent, create a certain amount of ‘working distance’, and otherwise disrupt an incoming attack.

              Again, in my experience, these are all things that most American CQB pistol combatants are NOT correctly taught how to do; and, please, don’t anybody reply that using the feet is too dangerous to do. Guns, themselves, are dangerous—Very dangerous! We, ourselves, are (or, at least, should be) trained, skilled, and self-disciplined to be (again, at least, potentially) dangerous as well.

              Remember: “All cats have claws,” for such is the nature of this world, and of humankind as well. Gunfighting IS, and always will be, a very dangerous endeavor. That is ‘Why’ genuinely skillful pistoleros train as rigorously and often as they do.

              Many years ago, now, I learned that if there is one thing a CQB pistol should never be, it is what I’ve now seen thousands of people use their EDC handguns for: Either as some sort of an imaginary ‘security blanket’, or as a presumed ‘badge of authority’.

              My best advice? If you should ever find yourself to be suddenly caught up in a potentially deadly close quarter AMBUSH (which is the worst type of physical attack to get caught in), then you should immediately do everything you can in order to protect your hands and keep your primary weapon safe.

              In an ambush: Always seek to step off, unbalance, and/or sweep the direct line of attack away from your body. Work to maintain your reaction time, and create a viable working distance between yourself, and the opponent. In up close and personal close quarter combat remember that Nature (The Good Lord) gave you BOTH two hands and two feet; so try to learn how to use your arms and legs, together, in order to make a more effective, more skillful reply.

              Sometimes, sometimes, there is no other way to successfully sweep an opponent’s weapon away, or to ‘step off the X’ than to take cover behind your own front sight and, then, work it well—at some (viable) sort of distance!
              ‘L‘Enfer C’est Les Autres, Et Les Choses Terribles Qu’ils Font!’

              Comment


              • #8
                Arc Angel, YES that is what I was trying to say.

                I think that combatives makes a whole lot of sense. The firearm being a security blanket is spot on. Sometimes a situation that starts off as 1 not requiring a firearm then escalates to 1 that does. I'm of the opinion that if your only training firearm specific techniques then you are incomplete. I think if you want to be well rounded, then not only do you have to train with firearms, but have combatives and the physical ability to do those things.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Awareness of your surroundings, good judgement, using angles, obstacles and distance, combatives and combat marksmanship. Ideally, in that order, if possible and necessary to deal with a life threatening engagement. Combatives should be used to break contact and get enough space to apply your combat marksmanship, again if absolutely necessary. Drawing and firing from "retention" is a skill that should be practiced occasionally, but if you are there, you probably missed something else up the chain (were you aware of your surroundings?) The first things on my list can be practiced in your daily life, combatives and combat marksmanship require training and regular practice to maintain proficiency. Add physical fitness and first aid, on top of all that, if you want to be as prepared as possible for the worst possible scenario.

                  On another note, I could care less what moviegoers think. Bringing your support hand up by your chin during the draw takes no extra time if trained, and has a number of benefits besides defensive striking. It's a constant for your support hand, ensures you draw the sight up to your eye as quickly as possible (hand meets hand) and keeps that support hand from getting in front of your muzzle during the draw, especially when you are learning or in a high stress situation.

                  Train well,
                  Coch
                  My posts are for general educational and informational purposes only. What you do with this information is your responsibility. I encourage you to seek out professional instruction. Nothing replaces in-person training with a qualified professional to ensure you learn properly and train safely.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Because buying the newest gun, light, knife or red dot and posting pictures on instagram is more popular than putting in the work to be better at combatives. Physical fitness and combatives are just as crucial as range time as most confrontations are not at distance and are within striking distance. I think the entire point is to be harder to kill and you should approach your defense from all three angles, as well as solid medical training.
                    My posts are for general educational and informational purposes only. What you do with this information is your responsibility. I encourage you to seek out professional instruction. Nothing replaces in-person training with a qualified professional to ensure you learn properly and train safely.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Something we might all be missing here is that you are stastically much more likely to be involved in a use of force encounter that requires Reasonable non-deadly force, and the items Coch mentioned are even more critical than your actual shooting mechanics. Paying Attention in transitional spaces, being able to weaponize your startle-flinch response, and immediately turn on your self defense combatives based on the type and level of attack is really going to improve your survival success rate. Defending against that initial attack, Creating distance or moving behind or around obsticles or physical barriers, and drawing while moving are all necessary skills to develop for your personal safety strategy. Have a plan, and training to implement it. An excellent source of evidence based self defense is John's ASP YouTube channel. This shows what trained and untrained people actually do in armed, unarmed, and other deadly encounters. I fully agree that everyone should "Pray for peace, but prepare for the worst."

                      My posts are for general educational and informational purposes only. What you do with this information is your responsibility. I encourage you to seek out professional instruction. Nothing replaces in-person training with a qualified professional to ensure you learn properly and train safely.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by CCWUSA View Post
                        Something we might all be missing here is that you are stastically much more likely to be involved in a use of force encounter that requires Reasonable non-deadly force, and the items Coch mentioned are even more critical than your actual shooting mechanics. Paying Attention in transitional spaces, being able to weaponize your startle-flinch response, and immediately turn on your self defense combatives based on the type and level of attack is really going to improve your survival success rate. Defending against that initial attack, Creating distance or moving behind or around obsticles or physical barriers, and drawing while moving are all necessary skills to develop for your personal safety strategy. Have a plan, and training to implement it. An excellent source of evidence based self defense is John's ASP YouTube channel. This shows what trained and untrained people actually do in armed, unarmed, and other deadly encounters. I fully agree that everyone should "Pray for peace, but prepare for the worst."
                        exactly, too many people spend time trying to do the tom cruise draw from collateral when that is only a thing when you are the instigator. That does not work in response to a threat in close quarters unless you can create distance. then if they are charging you, you have to be able to do that "high speed" nonsense while backpedaling. 9 times out of 10 you will end up on your back in a wrestling match for your own gun.... there are plenty of dead cops to prove this point who are killed with their own firearm.
                        My posts are for general educational and informational purposes only. What you do with this information is your responsibility. I encourage you to seek out professional instruction. Nothing replaces in-person training with a qualified professional to ensure you learn properly and train safely.

                        Comment

                        Working...
                        X