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  • Question about zeroing for Greg Hake

    In this video posted on youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k8xk54EV8U) Greg Hake demonstrates canting the rifle on presentation from the high ready. My question is how he sets the zero on his optic -- meaning, at what distance; and how does he adjust for the cant with a red dot in shooting at distances further out than the zero distance?

  • #2
    Greg Hake here's a question for you based on one of the videos we created.

    Roslyn, my two cents, canting the rifle ever so slightly as shown in the video, will not really affect your bullet trajectory at close distances. If you go passed 100 yards, you will likely see some differences, but nowhere near the difference you'd see if your rifle was canted 90 degrees.

    Canted or not, one needs to consider the use of "holds" when shooting beyond their desired zero distance.

    JoeFarewell JRedding might be able to give additional thoughts as well.

    Comment


    • #3
      Within 100 yards you won't see much of an impact with the cant he is using, however the further out you get the more impact it will have. At 200 yards the drop off to the left of your normal holds will be pretty substantial, and at 300-400 you're going to see some major issues. For close quarters and fast shooting I have no issue with running the rifle canted, however any precision work should be done with the rifle as level as possible.

      One of my good friends, Jake Latola, did a great video on the effects of canting your rifle. Check it out on his Instagram here: https://bit.ly/Jake-riflecant
      My posts are for general educational and informational purposes only. What you do with this information is your responsibility. I encourage you to seek out professional instruction. Nothing replaces in-person training with a qualified professional to ensure you learn properly and train safely.

      Comment


      • #4
        Thank you, that all makes sense and no surprise. What zero distance do you recommend for a red dot? I am using 50 yards, but curious whether there is a reason to use something else. I have no magnification behind the optic, FWIW. Maybe that is an additional question: do operators in the field use 3X magnification behind their red dots?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Roslyn View Post
          Thank you, that all makes sense and no surprise. What zero distance do you recommend for a red dot? I am using 50 yards, but curious whether there is a reason to use something else. I have no magnification behind the optic, FWIW. Maybe that is an additional question: do operators in the field use 3X magnification behind their red dots?
          I use a 50-yard zero for ARs and 100-yard zero for long guns.

          I've heard operators can use a magnifier if they want, but I don't believe it's standard. Fred Ruiz , any insight into this?

          Comment


          • #6
            I also use a 50 yard zero. I don't worry about minor cant inside of 100 yards. As a general rule of thumb, for 90 degrees of cant "Aim high to the mag side". At 100 yards use approx. 6" of hold about shoulder hold to the mag side. At 200 yards use head high off shoulder hold to mag side. It really depends on your rifle/bullet (bullet weight, muzzle velocity, etc.) so we recommending confirming holds on freshly painted steel.
            Move FAST, Shoot in CONTROL



            www.stealthshooting.com

            My posts are for general educational and informational purposes only. What you do with this information is your responsibility. I encourage you to seek out professional instruction. Nothing replaces in-person training with a qualified professional to ensure you learn properly and train safely.

            Comment


            • #7
              Very helpful, much appreciated.

              Comment


              • #8
                Roslyn quoting your question:

                "...Greg Hake demonstrates canting the rifle on presentation from the high ready. My question is how he sets the zero on his optic -- meaning, at what distance; and how does he adjust for the cant with a red dot in shooting at distances further out than the zero distance?"

                I have zero'd my optics the same way for years. For my 10" upper I would use an EoTech w/Tripler and would zero it at the 50 yard line, I have found for that particular set up it works best. I would not do anything different in regards to the optic, I have never noticed any difference utilizing a cant, admittedly the shots I have taken with this setup have been largely within the 300 yd range.

                I like the flexibility a magnifier brings to the table, it doesn't take much to move it in and out of place and once you figure out the position that works for you and your particular weapons system you don't even notice it. I would practice moving it in and out of place as was required during training or what have you. It just makes utilizing a red dot out at further distances a lot easier.

                I am sure that it is entirely possible out at longer ranges to have issues with POI due to the cant, though I have never personally experienced this. I should also note that longer shots, say out past 300 yds, I have very rarely taken from any position other than a supported position and with magnification. I am sure that there are lots of people out there that can hit targets without assistance be it magnification or a bipod out at that range and beyond...not this guy. I would love to hear your thoughts on this.
                My posts are for general educational and informational purposes only. What you do with this information is your responsibility. I encourage you to seek out professional instruction. Nothing replaces in-person training with a qualified professional to ensure you learn properly and train safely.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Greg, thanks for the note. In the last 10 years I have shot almost exclusively PRS class matches -- so a lot of prone and modified prone, positional shooting off rocks, barricades, tank traps and the like, usually at distances from 300-1500 yards. Almost all of us zero at 100 yards for that application and cant is only an issue if a match director is messing with the field by adding a stage to see who can use a reticle properly.

                  The geometry of the small cant you showed in the video obviously doesn't cause much deviation at shorter distances. It was the 200-400 yard shots that were on my mind in the original post and you addressed that with the common sense of using a supported position with magnification. Farewell and Redding also were helpful about how to make a reasonable guess at distance with a 90 degree cant. My long gun training has me so used to a traditional cheek position that it hadn't occurred to me to cant a carbine.

                  I have a Trijicon MRO with a 2.0 MOA red dot on the AR15 rig now, and have wondered about using a magnifier. Seems obvious that it would be a good idea from reading your post. I do find that the red dot for all practical purposes obscures even a 10" plate at 400 yards, and am completely reliant on wild guessing in trying to make a wind call. Another good reason to have some magnification.

                  Thanks for the post. I am also looking into learning through pain, as you recommend...

                  Cheers
                  Last edited by Roslyn; 07-16-2020, 07:16 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Roslyn,

                    When shooting from a supported position for longer ranges I did not utilize the cant, I was traditionally trained (so to speak) as a sniper and would mold my body around the gun, for lack of a better description. For those instances I definitely utilized a head tilt, bringing my head to the gun and angling my neck. I utilized the cant for a more dynamic shooting scenario and also served an additional purpose.

                    Often I was utilizing NODs in those scenarios, yet most of the marksmanship training conducted in both civilian and military circles is during the day. Early in my career I noticed how difficult it was for me to shoot at night, it felt so unfamiliar and awkward, most of my technique that I was utilizing during the day was not transferring over to my nighttime work. Tilting my head to the sights was uncomfortable for my neck, not utilizing a cheek weld made things feel super awkward, I was throwing my shots and was less than pleased. I incorporated the cant in an attempt to solve the multiple problems transitioning to night...it worked great and have been using it to keep continuity in my shooting program ever since.
                    My posts are for general educational and informational purposes only. What you do with this information is your responsibility. I encourage you to seek out professional instruction. Nothing replaces in-person training with a qualified professional to ensure you learn properly and train safely.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Myles View Post

                      I use a 50-yard zero for ARs and 100-yard zero for long guns.

                      I've heard operators can use a magnifier if they want, but I don't believe it's standard. Fred Ruiz , any insight into this?
                      Operators use whatever they want for the most part. Some guys use magnifiers and some don’t. It’s a great way to force multiply your capabilities in such an easy way. They’ve been around for a while now and are still a great piece of kit.

                      Personally, I’m all about the Low Variable Powered Scope. Red dot, magnifier, and long range scope, all in one package. The draw backs are that they are a little heavier than just a dot setup and maybe cumbersome if you’re not used to it. No big. They’re legit. One stop shop.
                      Roslyn if you need to acquire any optics let me know.

                      Another benefit to canting slightly is that it offsets the rifles tendency to want to recoil you and right. Similar concept to how some people like to can’t the pistol when they shoot one-handed. Try it next time you’re at the range with that in mind and see what you think.
                      My posts are for general educational and informational purposes only. What you do with this information is your responsibility. I encourage you to seek out professional instruction. Nothing replaces in-person training with a qualified professional to ensure you learn properly and train safely.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Greg Hake View Post
                        Roslyn quoting your question:

                        "...Greg Hake demonstrates canting the rifle on presentation from the high ready. My question is how he sets the zero on his optic -- meaning, at what distance; and how does he adjust for the cant with a red dot in shooting at distances further out than the zero distance?"

                        I have zero'd my optics the same way for years. For my 10" upper I would use an EoTech w/Tripler and would zero it at the 50 yard line, I have found for that particular set up it works best. I would not do anything different in regards to the optic, I have never noticed any difference utilizing a cant, admittedly the shots I have taken with this setup have been largely within the 300 yd range.

                        I like the flexibility a magnifier brings to the table, it doesn't take much to move it in and out of place and once you figure out the position that works for you and your particular weapons system you don't even notice it. I would practice moving it in and out of place as was required during training or what have you. It just makes utilizing a red dot out at further distances a lot easier.

                        I am sure that it is entirely possible out at longer ranges to have issues with POI due to the cant, though I have never personally experienced this. I should also note that longer shots, say out past 300 yds, I have very rarely taken from any position other than a supported position and with magnification. I am sure that there are lots of people out there that can hit targets without assistance be it magnification or a bipod out at that range and beyond...not this guy. I would love to hear your thoughts on this.


                        Wonderful explanation Greg.

                        To the OP, this method has more to do with close-mid range weapon manipulation than pretty much anything else. The idea is to bring the optic to the eye as early as possible. Our ability to accurately put a round on a target relies on 2 things, our finger properly moving the trigger to the rear, and an aiming point, ie the optic. The earlier the optic is between the eye and the target, the more time the shooter has for a host of other thought process that need to occur. Also, remember this was originally designed for room distance to mid range encounters, not precision marksmanship. From experience, I can honestly say that out to 400yds, the average to above average shooter has to just as much control and technique to get hits from standing, kneeling and other positions with canted or non canted holds.

                        I hope this helps clarify

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