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[VIDEO] What would you do in this situation?

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  • [VIDEO] What would you do in this situation?

    I thought it would be valuable and a good learning experience to post videos of different life-threatening situations, either from various force-on-force training or real conflicts caught on camera, and get feedback from our SMEs and other members of the community.

    There are so many variables that it's impossible to plan for everything, but getting feedback and openly discussing different approaches can help us all be better prepared.

    Here's a situation from a recent force on force class I attended. I'm in the driver's seat with my eye's closed, and I don't know what the situation is. All I know is I'm in the car. I don't know if there are bad guys, etc. where they are, etc.

    Assuming you cannot de-escalate, what would you have done? My thought process was to use the door to hide my draw and run laterally to create distance while opening fire. I understand car doors are not good cover (as they appear in the movies), so I didn't use the door for cover.

    But after reviewing the footage, part of me wonders if it would be best to have run towards the rear of the vehicle. Some potential pros and cons pop into my head:
    • Pro
      • Although the car door is not ideal cover, perhaps it could significantly slow down any bullets?
      • I could make it all the way to the back of the truck where there would be a lot more vehicle in between the bad guy and me to decrease the chance of a lethal shot through the vehicle.
      • I could then use the car as some kind of cover.
    • Cons
      • I would have been directly in the line of fire moving straight back (though the door would have been in between us).
      • I don't feel I would have been able to sprint to the back while getting good shots off, even with one hand.
      • My shots may be negatively affected by the door, too, though I would likely aim for the bad guy through the glass.
    Some points to consider:
    • The bad guy has a gun and it's highly like they would return fire. My thought process in running to create distance, even though I had no cover, is that the bad guy would not be able to fire accurately while taking hits. My partner in this drill did mention that he got hit multiple times.
    • I ran more on a 45 degree angle. I think I would have run more of 90 degree angle if I had to do it again to make myself a 'harder' target to hit.

    Thoughts?


  • #2
    What did he want? You? Your stuff? Your vehicle?
    My posts are for general educational and informational purposes only. What you do with this information is your responsibility. I encourage you to seek out professional instruction. Nothing replaces in-person training with a qualified professional to ensure you learn properly and train safely.

    Comment


    • #3
      Not sure I'd get into a gunfight over my things

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Fred Ruiz View Post
        What did he want? You? Your stuff? Your vehicle?
        Hey Fred, he was telling me to get out of the car, so I’m assuming my stuff and the vehicle.

        AVRDefense makes a good point of not getting into a fight over things, and I agree. Though I keep thinking in the back of my mind that I don’t know what this bad guy will do given he’s already pointing a gun at me, i.e. will he shoot even after he gets what he wants? will he just leave?

        Statistically, perhaps stats are out there that show most people who are car-jacked actually do not get harmed. I don’t know though. If this is the case, I’d likely lean towards complying and giving my stuff/car, etc.

        Here, I’m assuming this is a really bad situation where the bad guy will fire regardless if he gets what he wants or not.

        Comment


        • #5
          Wow! That is a real ‘nerves of steel’ situation; and it’s compounded by the fact that the driver didn't see it coming! Assuming I am that unfortunate driver, and caught in the same situation . . . well I would, quite frankly, give ‘Jack’ the vehicle.

          Several thoughts come to mind: (1) The actor sitting on his duff inside of the vehicle is at a clear and distinct disadvantage. (2) An extremely close confrontational situation like the one shown here is, without question, a mutual suicide AMBUSH event; and (3) the actor who has his gun out and in-hand first has a distinct advantage—A killing advantage!

          Neither do I believe that an alert and ‘hardwired’ perpetrator would have failed to notice the draw, and especially not a draw that was made from beneath a cover garment. The driver’s shoulder movement DID ‘telegraph’ that draw, too!

          (This is one of the reasons why I prefer to use a 2:00 o’clock appendix carry whenever I’m driving.)

          So, what would I personally do if I were caught in such a tough tactical situation? (You’re going to like this!) I would do the one most repugnant thing that every seasoned combatant is loath to do: I would feign both fear and compliance. I would become talkative and say things like: “OK, OK, take whatever you want; the truck is yours!” “Just don’t shoot; please, please, don’t shoot—OK!

          Look! Fear and cooperation are what this perp WANTS TO SEE; and by repeating compelling suggestive remarks like this you’re encouraging him to, at the very least, stifle his trigger finger impulse to shoot.

          What every vehicle driver who’s caught at such a sudden disadvantage needs to do is ANYTHING that will buy him time while he moves—not to draw and fire, but—to get 'off the X’.

          Me? I’d go with my mouth before I’d go for my gun. Without hubris, and without shame I’d show both fear and cooperation. Furthermore, depending upon the age and quality of the vehicle, I might promptly elect to let the auto insurance company deal with the theft rather than attempt to do anything about it, myself, right then and there.

          Tactically speaking, it is the actor behind the wheel who is always at a distinct disadvantage. If I were to do little else to defend myself in a situation like this I would, nevertheless, prefer to get the perpetrator to change places with me as quickly as possible; AND I would rely upon my acting skills, rather than upon my tactical skills in order to get myself ‘off the X’, out of the vehicle, and put some distance between us.

          Now, before closing this out let’s talk about things that I absolutely positively would NOT do: (1) I would not stand still for the guy. Whether he told me to, or not, I would continue to: 'beg off’, hold my open palms upward and towards him as I, all the while, kept on moving steadily farther away from him. (2) Furthermore, under no circumstances, whatsoever, would I allow myself to be searched.

          (Why? Because if the ‘mo-fo’ should find something on your person like a gun, or a badge then the chance of the perp suddenly pulling the trigger go wa … aaay up!)

          What is more, I’ve learned that: If you’re facing a knife or a pointed handgun, the spatial advantage will shift in your favor as the distance between you and the threat increases—That is why!

          At and beyond 8 to 10 yards the tactical (and marksmanship) advantage actually turns in your favor! Anyone who is well practiced with a pistol has, at this point, effectively equalized the perpetrator’s former potential advantage, and nullified the vehicle operator’s previously distinct disadvantage.

          In my opinion, the correct and most advantageous answer to the portrayed problem does not lie in immediately drawing and firing; instead the driver’s best chance of getting out of this extremely dangerous and potentially fatal tactical situation is to be found in, at least, initially talking and acting your way off of ‘the X’, and putting, a good several yards’ distance between yourself and the threat BEFORE you make a final decision about how to respond.

          Once the perp gets behind the steering wheel, and anchors his butt to the vehicle’s seat THEN he will be in the same highly disadvantageous physical position in which he once held you; and THAT is the real point at which you can, if you so elect, turn the tables!

          As I’ve already said, though: All things considered I just might let the insurance company take everything over and thereafter handle the situational aftermath. I mean why not? Broken glass, blood on the seats, and bullet holes throughout the car are all things that might not ultimately work to your advantage—Yes!
          Last edited by Arc Angel; 07-12-2019, 05:37 AM.
          ‘L‘Enfer C’est Les Autres, Et Les Choses Terribles Qu’ils Font!’

          Comment


          • #6
            Arc Angel,

            Great feedback and insights! Really appreciate it.

            Yes, I could not help but feel disoriented when I opened my eyes--trying to make sense of what was going on in the situation. You're right about the telegraphing. During our debrief, my partners mentioned that the draw could be improved.

            I do agree with initially talking and acting my way off of the X. What bugs me is the unknown variable of will this guy shoot me even if I comply, giving him the first mover advantage. I guess that's the chance we need to take to possibly avoid a gunfight. I don't know what the real stats are or if they even exist, but I would think that most car-jacking incidents with a gun do not lead to fight, i.e. one just complies. But, who knows, I can be completely wrong here!

            Thanks again for the feedback--valuable stuff to think about.

            Would love to hear others' takes/opinions.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Myles View Post

              Hey Fred, he was telling me to get out of the car, so I’m assuming my stuff and the vehicle.

              AVRDefense makes a good point of not getting into a fight over things, and I agree. Though I keep thinking in the back of my mind that I don’t know what this bad guy will do given he’s already pointing a gun at me, i.e. will he shoot even after he gets what he wants? will he just leave?

              Statistically, perhaps stats are out there that show most people who are car-jacked actually do not get harmed. I don’t know though. If this is the case, I’d likely lean towards complying and giving my stuff/car, etc.

              Here, I’m assuming this is a really bad situation where the bad guy will fire regardless if he gets what he wants or not.
              But see the thing is that if he's pointing a gun at you, demanding your belongings, that's likely all he wants. Else he'd have just shot you and taken it.

              Things I'd look at are his perceived mental state and recklessness. I.e. Does he appear to be under the influence of drugs. Look at his eyes. Is his finger on the trigger? Is it likely, based on what you observe, that he could shoot you on accident? Always watch people's hands and posture. It'll tell you everything.

              I would really take a passive and submissive approach to any encounter involving stolen property. Try to de-escalate, comply, and assess risk brought by the person's demeanor.

              Your point is valid... He's pointing a gun at you. But if he wanted to straight up kill you and take your stuff you wouldn't have a chance anyways while sitting in a death box during an ambush attack.

              Comment


              • #8
                In this hypothetical situation, if the guy wants the car I'll get out and back away towards the rear of the vehicle all the while telling him "no problem its insured, take it, I don't want any problems etc. when you reach the rear of the car duck out of sight and run if you can draw and maneuver if you can't. If my grand kid is in the car, the situation changes, he dies. Maybe me too, but no one is taking my grand kids. If one of my daughters is in the car with me, that poor dumb jackass is outgunned.
                My posts are for general educational and informational purposes only. What you do with this information is your responsibility. I encourage you to seek out professional instruction. Nothing replaces in-person training with a qualified professional to ensure you learn properly and train safely.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Coch View Post
                  In this hypothetical situation, if the guy wants the car I'll get out and back away towards the rear of the vehicle all the while telling him "no problem its insured, take it, I don't want any problems etc. when you reach the rear of the car duck out of sight and run if you can draw and maneuver if you can't. If my grand kid is in the car, the situation changes, he dies. Maybe me too, but no one is taking my grand kids. If one of my daughters is in the car with me, that poor dumb jackass is outgunned.
                  Oops bro you dun goofed and carjacked an operator. He didn't even shoot your ass, his girl did and she looked like Evelyn Salt doing it.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    AMTAC, Myles?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Yeah, the video is from one of Bill’s classes!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Myles View Post
                        Yeah, the video is from one of Bill’s classes!
                        Bill is a very good friend of mine.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Awesome. Definitely a great guy who knows a lot. Really enjoyed his class.

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